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Tuesday, May 11, 2010

Frederick Tilney & Elizabeth Cheney & Sir John Saye

184694. Frederick Tilney & 184695. Elizabeth Cheney & 950662. Sir John Saye   

~1418, Frederick born in Lincoln, England, heir & s/o 369388. Philip Tilney & 369389. Isabel Thorp.

~1420, John Say born in England, s/o §§John Say & Maud ?. [Educated as a lawyer.]

4/1422, Elizabeth born in Fen Ditton, Cambridgeshire, England, d/o 369390. Laurence Cheney & 369391. Elizabeth Cokayne.

8/31/1422, Henry VI (an infant) succeeded Henry V as King of England.

1438, Frederick, Sheriff of Boston, Lincolnshire [his father the Sheriff of Lincolnshire.]

 [––Frederick & Elizabeth––]

By 2/10/1442, Frederick married Elizabeth.

2/10/1442 at Thetford, Deed poll, demise. 1) Margaret (738777), late wife of Frederic, s. of Philip Tylney, kt. … 2) Frederic, s. of Philip Tylney, clerk, and wife Eliz., d. of Laurence Cheyne, esq. … (1) to (2) and heirs of bodies manor of Thetford in Isle of Ely with premises there and in Streteham, Ely and Litelporte. Reversion to Philip Tylney, clerk. (S) UKNA.

2/16/1443, “Gift, Frederick son of Philip Tilney, clerk, and Elizabeth his wife, daughter of Lawrence Cheyne esq. grant and warrant to Lawrence Cheyne, … the manor of Thetford, with all lands in Stretham, Ely, Lilelport and Berwey.” (S) UKNA.

1443-44, John Say, under the patronage of William de la Pole, Duke of Suffock.

2/19/1444, John paid an advance of £21 and 5s a day to accompany the embassy of Suffolk to negotiate the marriage of Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou in Harfleur.

10/6/1444, John, ‘the king’s Sergeant’, receiving £10 yearly, also got a promise of a grant for life of the office of Coroner of the Marshalsea of Household when its holder died. (S) CCRs, 10/21/1444.

3/8/1445, John granted for life the keeping of the privy palace of Westminster.

11/4/1445, John appointed royal escheator in Cambridgshire and Huntingdonshire. (S) CFRs.

By 1446, Frederick died before his father; buried at Ashwellthorp, Norfolk.

11/4/1446, John appointed royal escheator in Norfolk and Suffolk. (S) CFRs.

[––John & Elizabeth––]

12/1/1446, Elizabeth married 2nd Sir John Say; of Baas in Broxbourne, Little Berkhampstead, and Sawbridge, Herts.

2/3/1447, John a member of Parliament as a Burgess for Cambridge.

2/21/1447, By royal patent, John given wardship and marriage of his step-daughter Elizabeth.

2/25/1447, John give a grant for life of the manor of Lawford.

2/17/1448, John granted by the king a cup of silver and gilt from the jewel house.

1449, John, Speaker of the House of Commons, representing Cambridgeshire. (S) Parliament Rolls, 2005, 4/30/1463.

4/3/1449, John an Esquire to the Body of King Henry VI granted an annuity for life of 50 marks.

12/20/1449, John Say, esquire, appointed sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk. (S) CFRs.

1450, John made Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

3/1450, John sat on commissions inquiring into treasons in London, Hampshire and Northants.

12/16/1450, John (and about 20 others) accused of “misbehaving about your royal person.”

4/11/1451, “Indenture, marriage settlement. 1) John Bourgchier, kt. 2) John Say esqs. Laurence Cheyne esqs. Humfrey, s. of (1) to espouse Eliz., d. of Frederyk Tylney, esq., "that is to God passed", she being ward of J.S., before next All Saints. (1) to settle on them and heirs male premises worth £40 p.a. Until Michaelmas J.S. to take any profits of premises due to Eliz. by death of Dame Joan Clyfton, except any premises held from Wm. Hardolph. If Humfrey die before Eliz. 14 yrs., she is to marry next son, or in default to be returned unmarried with any property. (2) to pay (1) £500 as specified and are bound to (1) in 1000 marks.” (S) UKNA.

1453-56, 1463-65, 1467, 1472-75, 1478, John represented Hertfordshire in Parilament.

4/15/1454, John made a member of the Royal Council with a fee of £40 a year.

5/21/1455, John with the King at Kilburn the day before the battle at St Albans.

5/22/1455, 1st battle of St. Albans, Hertfordshire, considered the 1st battle of the 30-year War of the Roses. Yorkists against an army of King Henry VI [who was captured]. The Duke of Somerset, the Earl of Northumberland, Lord Clifford, plus about 50 other notable Lancastrians, were killed in the fighting.

1455-56, John the Under-Treasurer of the Exchequer.

1456-57, “… to John Say and Elizabeth his wife, Laurence Cheyne, John Leventhorp, John cheyne, and Ralph Grey, of land in westfeld in the parish of Brokesborne …”. (S) UKNA.

6/28/1461, Edward IV succeeded Henry VI as King of England. [1st Yorkist King, after King Henry VI captured at the Battle of Northampton.]

1461-64, John Under-Treasurer of the Exchequer.

4/30/1463, John, Speaker of the House of Commons. (S) Parliament Rolls, 2005. [‘The ideal choice to take control of an assembly whose main purpose, as far as the king was concerned, was to supply him with money for his planned campaign against the Lancastrians in the north and their Scottish allies.’]

5/23/1465, John knighted and created a Knight of the Bath [along with 49 other knights.]

5/26/1465, John a member of the entourage for Elizabeth Wydeville as she was crowned Queen at Westminster.

1466-67, “Thomas Mountgomery, knight, Henry Belknap, esquire, … to John Say, knight : …”. (S) UKNA.

1467, John, Speaker of the House of Commons. [John unique as being the Speaker in both Lancastrian and Yorkist parliaments.]

10/3/1470, Henry VI regained the throne of England. [Earl of Warwick & Duke of Clarance effectively ruling.]

5/11/1471, Edward IV regained the crown after the Battle of Tewkesbury.

1472, John represented Tavistock, Devonshire in Parliament.

9/25/1473, Elizabeth died, buried at Boxbourne, Hertfordshire. [Elizabeth the ggm of Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, and Catherine Howard, 3 of the wives of King Henry VIII.]


Bef. 10/9/1474, John married 2nd Agnes Danvers, widow of Thomas Baldington. [No children.]

10/9/1474, John Brodgore of Much Wenden co. Essex, to Sir John Say and Agnes his wife, … of a mese called 'Bolys Sett' in the parishes of Much Wenden, Little Wenden and Neuport co. Essex. (S) CCRs.

4/29/1476, John, wife Agnes, late wife Elizabeth, and his children granted letters of confraternity by the Abbot and Convent of St Albans.

1475-78, John Under-Treasurer of the Exchequer.

4/10/1478, John wrote his will. (S) UKNA.

4/12/1478, John died; buried at Boxbourne with Elizabeth.

6/11/1478, Agnes wrote her will.

(S) Fifty Ancestors of Henry Lincoln Clapp, 1902, P73. (S) Magna Carta Ancestry, P190. (S) History and Antiquities of Boston, Thompson, 1856, P373. (S) Visitation of Norfolk. (S) Parliament and politics in medieval England, V2, Roskell, 1981, P153. (S) Hist. of Norfolk, V9, 1808, Massingham Parva.

Family notes:

·         John Say’s parentage is unknown, but it known that he was the brother of William Say, Archdeacon of Northamptonshire [1464-67]. 1468, William died as a dean of St. Pauls, London.

Children of Frederick and Elizabeth:

i. Elizabeth Tilney (92347), born 1442 in England. [Heir] 

Children of John and Elizabeth: [3 sons, 4 daughters named in his will.]

i. William Saye, born ? in England. [Heir]

ii. Anne Saye (475331), born ~1450 in England.   

iii. Elizabeth Saye, born ? in England.

Elizabeth married Thomas Sampson.

By 2/20/1484, Both Thomas and Elizabeth deceased.

iv. Thomas Say, born ? in England.

Thomas married Joan ?.

2/20/1484, Licence, … for Thomas Say [Joan his wife], son of John Say, knight, deceased, … successive remainders to William Say, knight, son and heir of the said John, … Leonard Say, son of the said John … Anne the wife of Henry Wentworth, knight, one of the daughters of the said John, the heirs of Elizabeth late the wife of Thomas Sampson, both deceased, another of the daughters of the said John, Katherine the wife of Thomas Bassyngburne, the third daughter, and Mary the wife of Philip Calthorpe, the fourth daughter. (S) CPRs.

v. Leonard Say, born ? in England.

vi. Katherine Saye, born ? in England.

Katherine married Thomas  Bassingbourne of Hatfield Woodhall, Hertsfordshire.

vii. Mary Saye, born ? in England.

Mary married Sir Philip Calthorpe of Kerdiaton, Norfolk.

1521, Sir Philip, Chamberlain to Princess Mary.

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